[mdwcalif]

All right gang, at the risk of getting parbroiled for weird ideas, I'm going to put another intake idea out here for your consideration and comments.

I've done my best to research intake alternatives, and get an overview of the options, advice from some folks. I'm not good at working on engines, so all I can do is try my best to do good research (since that's my job, I hope I at least do okay at that). I understand that what we're trying to accomplish with our intake mods (and there's lots of good info on this in a variety of threads here) is: a) improve air flow; b) get as cold-air as we can.

Cold air is good, because it's more compressed than hot air. Compressed air is good, because it improves ignition. We have sensors that change our timing when hot air is flowing in -- when that happens, it's not good for performance. When we're in cold air conditions, we don't worry much. But when we are in a hot climate plus have hot engines, it's a consideration.

Air flow is REALLY good for our engines, and opening that up is a good thing, pretty much no matter what.

The AEM and K&N "cold air intake" kits that we usually install DO improve our air flow, but they are not TRUE 'cold air intake' systems, in that they are pretty much at the mercy of the hot air collection in the engine compartment. "True" cold air intakes create ways to pull in air from outside the engine compartment.

So, I've been looking for a compromise. Here's my current best idea: Blitz-type induction covers. They look like this: http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/blitz/intake-incover.html

The idea is as follows: you remove one side of your stock air box, replace it with this mesh cover, and use either your stock air filter, or a drop-in. The advantage is a trade-off between cold air and increased air flow. You keep the air-flow pipe from that dead space between our front grille and OUTSIDE our firewall, directing a little bit cooler air into the intake. PLUS, you increase air flow by eliminating a whole side of your air box, gathering air from both inside your engine compartment (yet is heat-shielded), plus the intake from the restricted pipe still blowing onto that mesh cover.

I might not have explained it perfectly ... but whaddya think?

 

[desertrat]

I wouldn't mind trying that idea. I think you are on a good path here. Instead of paying out the nose for the K&N you could just about modify your cover. I would say cut some u-shaped holes into the top of the air cover and give them a good bend with the opening towards the front of the motor compartment so that it will catch the air. Kind of like a air ram induction. I will have to think about this and talk to some of the engineers where I work and see what I come up with. If they say it's good to go then I will have it done and post some pics and with step by step instructions. Good job on finding this. I don't really like the mesh because it looks like it would be sucking air from the engine compartment itself. Plus, you would have to place a heat shield. I'll keep you all posted on this one. I thought about it in the past and never followed through with it. Just to let you all know, I will be installing the lift kit on June 15th. Plus, I'm still letting my arm heal up some more and I'm physical therapy.

 

[BlueJet]

Just to let you all know, I will be installing the lift kit on June 15th. Plus, I'm still letting my arm heal up some more and I'm physical therapy.

I was just going to ask you about all of that! Keep healing! Sorry for the hijack Marla!

 

[mdwcalif]

Cool ! Thanks for the input and glad you're in therapy and on the mend, desertrat! Here's where some folks did their own version of this intake, on a different engine, but helps to see the steps they went through: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61782

My race-driver buddy at work has asked for some sort of prototype piece from his speed shop to get me started on this. The JBA mechanic thought it was a good idea too, except his office guys were worried about installing such a thing, in case it was not 'smog-legal.' I'm no expert, but I asked what this could possibly do to affect smog-legality ... I do understand the concept of all parts wanting an OE number though. Before I do anything I will make sure I'm not screwing up any warranty considerations too.

As far as I can see, this kind of mod SHOULD be ok, because it would retain almost all of the stock airbox parts, thus the stock airbox OE status? Not positive, here -- just still working on it.

 

[NitroTech]

The idea of the Blitz cover is interesting, however I believe the intake on both the 3.7 and 4.0L engines is opposite in airflow to the throttle body. What I mean is the intake tube from the airbox is connected to the cover and not the box. If the tube ran to the box the Blitz cover idea would work perfectly.

If you're looking for the 'BLING' of such a cover like the Blitz then I can see a reason to try an incorporate a DIY design as you have shown.

Increasing true cold airflow would require a redesign of the fresh air inlet to the actual airbox. From there using a regular air filter. Changing out the plastic tubing from the cover to the throttle body to a solid pipe and rubber elbow would complement the modification.

 

[IMWhisper]

WooHoo!
You go girl!!

 

[mdwcalif]

For about 10 minutes I was tempted to just rest on the laurels of NitroTech saying this idea was INTERESTING! But then I had to go see what he meant, and I do see. Heck no I'm not after any 'bling' factor -- I'm only trying to see the best way to improve intake, given every option and not wanting to screw anything up.

I see what you mean, NitroTech -- the cover idea would probably involve changing around which side is the 'cover.' Currently the stock intake filter lies horizontally. To work with this design, it would have to be re-positioned to be at a 90 degree angle, in other words, be on the vertical side, frontal to the vehicle. That seems pretty easy to do though, eh?

 

[NitroTech]

I hope when I said the idea was 'interesting' you weren't offended. Sorry if I came across that way. I personally enjoy DIY projects which require thought and construction over bolt on.

This might sound a little crude at first but give it some thought. Personally any airbox design whether its considered a CAI or something like a K&N that I've seen on the market are sub-standard and ineffective. Here's what I would consider doing and the products I'd use. I would use the aluminum dryer vent ducting. Like this. I would attach it the fresh air intake on the lower half of the box and the other end I'd route to an area that would allow the most direct airflow. Care has to be taken not to locate the duct in an area that would be susceptible to water ingestion. I'd also add a fine screen to keep dirt intake to a minimum.

 

[mdwcalif]

Oh my GOD no, NitroTech, I meant what I said seriously! There was no offense whatsoever in your reply. I'm a straight-up person, I don't do innuendo. I know you are a super-knowledgeable guy and you ARE NitroTech, and I was dead serious that I was thrilled when you said my idea was interesting!

I'm going to take your input to my local folks and see what we can do with it ... will keep this thread updated with anything we figure out. Thanks!

 

[Aaron]

I think the way to go on this one is to custom-fab a carbon fiber hood with engineered ram-air intake vents. Design it so you can straight-shot it through a high-flow filter into the intake. That can be done on the cheap, right?

- Aaron

 

[Scar0]

Oh my GOD no, NitroTech, I meant what I said seriously! There was no offense whatsoever in your reply. I'm a straight-up person, I don't do innuendo. I know you are a super-knowledgeable guy and you ARE NitroTech, and I was dead serious that I was thrilled when you said my idea was interesting!

I'm going to take your input to my local folks and see what we can do with it ... will keep this thread updated with anything we figure out. Thanks!

I was thinking a similar thought. :smileup: Necessity is the mother of invention. I guess the race is on! j/k. I have been looking a the design of the air box and trying to figure out how to get a more "Ram Air" like flow to the air box or CAI. The biggest issue I think is the limited space and like NitroTech stated keeping the watter out.

 

[KenCary]

All right gang, at the risk of getting parbroiled for weird ideas, I'm going to put another intake idea out here for your consideration and comments.

I've done my best to research intake alternatives, and get an overview of the options, advice from some folks. I'm not good at working on engines, so all I can do is try my best to do good research (since that's my job, I hope I at least do okay at that). I understand that what we're trying to accomplish with our intake mods (and there's lots of good info on this in a variety of threads here) is: a) improve air flow; b) get as cold-air as we can.

Cold air is good, because it's more compressed than hot air. Compressed air is good, because it improves ignition. We have sensors that change our timing when hot air is flowing in -- when that happens, it's not good for performance. When we're in cold air conditions, we don't worry much. But when we are in a hot climate plus have hot engines, it's a consideration.

Air flow is REALLY good for our engines, and opening that up is a good thing, pretty much no matter what.

The AEM and K&N "cold air intake" kits that we usually install DO improve our air flow, but they are not TRUE 'cold air intake' systems, in that they are pretty much at the mercy of the hot air collection in the engine compartment. "True" cold air intakes create ways to pull in air from outside the engine compartment.

So, I've been looking for a compromise. Here's my current best idea: Blitz-type induction covers. They look like this: http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/blitz/intake-incover.html

The idea is as follows: you remove one side of your stock air box, replace it with this mesh cover, and use either your stock air filter, or a drop-in. The advantage is a trade-off between cold air and increased air flow. You keep the air-flow pipe from that dead space between our front grille and OUTSIDE our firewall, directing a little bit cooler air into the intake. PLUS, you increase air flow by eliminating a whole side of your air box, gathering air from both inside your engine compartment (yet is heat-shielded), plus the intake from the restricted pipe still blowing onto that mesh cover.

I might not have explained it perfectly ... but whaddya think?

I think you are missing the point of the Blitz device. All it does is eliminate the stock airbox cover and opens up the element to underhood air.

This is good in that it gives better airflow, but it actually will pull HOTTER air than the K&N or other CAI's with an Air shield. Take a look at the K&N in a Nitro. The fileter area is covered with a gasketed heat shield that blocks off most of the hot under hood air from entering the filter. The Blitz device does not come with such a heat shield.

That being said, the Blitz would likely be better than stock because you eleminate the small air horn restriction. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, the cold air intake is not as important as removing air restrictions.

 

[mdwcalif]

Maybe I AM missing something ... but I thought that the modified Blitz-type cover would position the filter vertically in the box, and the new open-mesh type cover would also be on the front vertical side of the box, facing toward the front of the vehicle. That way, there is heat shielding on 3 sides? Am I picturing it incorrectly?

 

[KenCary]

Maybe I AM missing something ... but I thought that the modified Blitz-type cover would position the filter vertically in the box, and the new open-mesh type cover would also be on the front vertical side of the box, facing toward the front of the vehicle. That way, there is heat shielding on 3 sides? Am I picturing it incorrectly?

Yes you are missing the point.

First of all, the position of the Blitz grill depends on where the stock air box is positoned. Second, it has little to do with the position of the opening as far as pulling in cold air. The K&N, AEM and other CAI's have a 3-sided metal shield that has a rubber gasket on the top. When you close the hood this seals the top making an air box that pulls air mostly from the front of the engine compartment where it is cooler.

I also think that you are missing the big point which is that the bigger HP gain is from loss of restriction not cold air.

If you want the same effect as the Blitz grill. Look again at my post http://www.nitroforumz.com/showthread.php?t=6808&highlight=de-mystified and note that you can take a spade bit and drill a ton of holes in the stock air box. Pop in a K&N filter and you will pick up a few HP. Replace the stock air tube with sewer pipe-- and you'll have almost as much as a commercial CAI.

I don't mean to be flippant here, but you are really making this much more complicated than need be. Nothing you do to the intake alone will make a massive difference. The commercial CAI's do work and if you find or build a true "ram air" system the difference will be barely noticable.

Also be aware that most ram-air systems have a scoop under the front bumper. If you run into deep water- possible in an SUV, you may suck up an engine full of water-- not good. There are some that have gadets to help prevent water entry, but I still would not feel comfortable with an air intake 4-6" off the road on a vehicle that I take on country roads and occasionally off road.

Ken

 

[Scar0]

I think the key here is to get cold air from the outside and eliminate the restrictions caused by the factory air intake system. Thus, the need to eliminate the components in Ken's post.

Part one of the solution; Remove the air flow restrictions under the hood. As in Ken's post, with a manufactured CAI or home made one.

Part two of the solution; Introduce a less restrictive way to get cold air from the outside, with out getting watter sucked in. This is the one I have been thinking on.

Even with a CAI, you are still limiting the amount of air allowed to the filter. The restriction here, is the some what nonexistent inlet to the original air box its self. With a manufactured CAI installed it still relies on most of the air flow from the original forward air intake. If you notice on the Pic of a CAI install they do have a heat-shield/warm air blocker, on 3 sides. However the front still utilizes the stock air intake that runs behind the grill. This is the next restriction that needs to be removed to allow more cold air to the CAI. Granted, a manufactured CAI does not use just the factory inlet from the front. I am sure there is more airflow. You will also notice the filter is suspended, preventing introduction of watter.

The Blitz-type cover would work the same as a CAI, if it was positioned inside of the original air box with the top still in place, and the front of the air box removed.(cut out) with the screen against the front of the vehicle. However, you would still have to remove the restrictions caused by the factory plumbing from there back, and you still have to deal with the forward air restrictions. There is also the consideration of watter getting sucked in with this design, as there is no place for the watter to settle before it hits the filter. If you move the filter back (inside the box) or mount it at an angle \ (with the bottom of the filter off the floor of the box) it might work.

I like this wonderful exchange of Ideas. The more we talk about it, the more ideas we can come up with. I hope.

 

[KenCary]

Sorry to put a wet blanket on thie, but I personally think this thread is a waste of time.

There simply is not enough of a HP gain in playing with the intake to worry about air temperature. If you don't want to spring for a $ 200.00 CAI. Just drill the stock airbox and replace the factory air intake baffle with a piece of pipe with as few bends as possible.

 

[Scar0]

Sorry to put a wet blanket on thie, but I personally think this thread is a waste of time.

There simply is not enough of a HP gain in playing with the intake to worry about air temperature. If you don't want to spring for a $ 200.00 CAI. Just drill the stock airbox and replace the factory air intake baffle with a piece of pipe with as few bends as possible.

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, others may not.
What if the intent is to over come a challenge and come up with our own MOD solutions and it is not a $ issue? I love a challenge. :smileup: Just look at the rack I made. I could have bought a Mopar rack for $418.00. Instead I made one to my liking. That is the great thing about MOD-ing. Not everyone likes to follow the pack.

 

[mdwcalif]

Right, for what it's worth, in my case this is not at all about a $ issue. I can afford to install a K&N or an AEM CAI, or I can play with a new design and get help to install it. That's not it. I'm trying to understand the pros and cons of the design, and the purpose for which the mods are intended.

I know that when our engines sense hot air, they will adjust our timing. I'm trying to NOT be sluggish at take-off from the stoplight, because I live in a hot as heck climate and for most of the year, I have hot air outside and even more so inside my engine compartment. I don't want to lose the advantage of increased airflow to diminished performance when I pull hot air. That's what I'm exploring. I'm here to learn.

When I started this inquiry, I didn't know the difference between a CAI and ram-air intake. I'm learning what those differences are, and how there are considerations to both designs, pros and cons. I'm not going to build a new car, God forbid, that would be a disaster. I'm just trying to understand enough about what I'm doing and why to make good choices. That's a good thing, I submit!